Ready to take your mindfulness practice to the next level? What if you could approach life by relaxing back and down into an already awake mind and heart? Join Diana for an inspiring and illuminating discussion with Loch Kelly, seasoned meditator and author of the bestselling book The Way of Effortless Mindfulness: A Revolutionary Guide for Living an Awakened Life about awake awareness, an advanced form of mindfulness that, through little efforts and shifts of awareness, imbues living from a more spacious, interconnected, and heart-centered space. 

Listen and Learn:

  • What is awake awareness?

  • What does “effortless” have to do with it?

  • How does awake awareness differ from deliberate awareness?

  • Awake awareness vs empathy

  • The value of “glimpses”

  • Why awake awareness is not a spiritual bypass

 About Loch Kelly:

Loch Kelly, MDiv, LCSW, is a psychotherapist, meditation teacher, and expert in the field of meditation and psychotherapy. He has also authored the best-selling book The Way of Effortless Mindfulness: A Revolutionary Guide for Living an Awakened Life and founded the Open-Hearted Awareness Institute in New York City. Loch’s primary mission is to teach others how to access awakening and to live from open-hearted awareness. Loch contributes to research at the University of Pennsylvania, Yale, and New York University on how training in awareness improves compassion and wellbeing. He received his degrees from Columbia University and Union Theological Seminary.


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Episode Transcript

 Loch Kelly: [00:00:00] awake awareness is like opening behind the camera or behind the meditator or relaxing back and down into this already awake open mind open heart that feels both spacious and embodied and interconnected 

Diana Hill: [00:00:23] You’re listening to Loch Kelly on psychologists off the clock.

Debbie Sorensen: [00:01:14] If you’re someone who practices mindfulness and is interested in exploring some different aspects of mindfulness and really deepening your practice, we have an episode that might be of interest to you today. We have Loch Kelly on the podcast here to talk to us about effortless mindfulness.

Diana Hill: [00:01:31] author and meditation teacher and psychotherapist, and he’s the founder of the Openhearted Awareness Institute. And he’s developed this concept called effortless mindfulness that he draws from traditional Tibetian teachings on the nature of the mind.

And he proposes sort of these series of exercises or glimpse. Where you learn all about awareness and explore the nature of awareness, and then ultimately embody that awareness as sort of a paradigm shift in how to live a more kind, open-hearted life. And these are really high level. Teachings that he offers.

So most of us know about mindfulness in terms of what he calls deliberate mindfulness, which is pay attention to your breathing or pay attention to a flower or a smell. And he starts with that. But then effortless mindfulness moves on to the next level, which is stepping back into awareness itself.

 So I think that if, if you are a meditator and you have an interest in this, it will probably be really fascinating for you. 

Loch Kelly: [00:02:42] Welcome Loch Kelly. It’s good to have you on the show. 

Thank you, 

I think one place to start is the the title of this podcast is effortless mindfulness, and I imagine that a lot of folks might have clicked on that because they’re looking for a quick way to get to mindful this it doesn’t require as much effort.

This is what humans love is less effort. Right? But but what you’re talking about in terms of effortless is maybe a little bit different than what listeners are thinking thinking of I think it’d be good to start with what is effortless mindfulness and how maybe is it different than the type of mindfulness?

We see promoted out there 

Yes, sure. Yes. So yeah, it’s not instant Enlightenment, like instant coffee. It is a way to discover through little efforts and little shifts of awareness a capacity that we naturally have that is already effortlessly aware. And that we tap into most of us I find have already experienced it and in fact choose to experience it in most of the things we love to do in our daily life.

So walking in nature gardening playing sports playing music in order to do those activities. You come out of this mental small. Sense of self that is self-referencing and looking to thought to remember what to do and you kind of drop. Down into your body and into this kind of open mind open heart and then you feel connected.

Let’s say you’re walking in nature. You you just feel relaxed and interconnected with everything and you just are walking without thinking about walking. So so there’s this capacity that is considered the advanced form of mindfulness called effortless mindfulness. 

a practice. Actually that people would spend many many years studying to to learn and you’ve spent a lot of time exploring different Buddhist philosophies.

And on your own. Can you talk a little bit about how you came to learn about effortless mindfulness? What’s your connection to meditation? 

Sure, I mean interestingly I would say my first experience was in sports is that I heard somebody a sportscaster say. In a talking about a quarterback on the football team.

He’s got eyes in the back of his head and I thought eyes in the back of his head. What does that mean? And I thought oh, can I see what’s behind me? No, that’s not it. So I literally just opened my awareness around to kind of open my peripheral vision and then I just kept. Kind of feeling that awareness didn’t stop with my eyes or my brain that opened up into this 360-degree panoramic awareness and then I just dropped into my body .

What I know now is that’s what’s called being in the zone or being in flow. And that’s what athletes musicians and people who are optimally functioning and yet feel Joy and Bliss are. Are able to access in their particular profession or through their activity and so I was kind of explaining this to a friend of mine and one of the seniors on the teams came to me the next week and said here kid read this and he gave me this book Zen and the Art of archery so at 14 I thought wow, this is like.

Incredible that people value this it’s the happiest. I feel in my life. It’s when I’m connected to everyone I feel. Joyous and embodied and so, you know, I followed that thread led me to graduate school in Psychology and spirituality in New York. And then I went on a fellowship to Sri Lanka and did the deliberate mindfulness the passenger Insight Meditation.

I did five-day Retreats 10-day Retreats 21-day Retreats and enjoyed that experience and then I went up North. And ended up at a Tibetan teacher who gave a 15-minute talk and then showed how to shift my awareness in three minutes. I felt the same way as I did at the end of attending a retreat. So the premise was this which you’re seeking which you effortfully can do the takes 10 days can be accessed in a snap of a finger.

Because it’s already installed. And so this direct kind of way of teaching it is one of the paths so you don’t have to do all the preliminary practices. 

when you speak of deliberate mindfulness, you’re referring to the type of mindfulness that a lot of us in the west are starting to learn which is that focused awareness of paying attention to our breath or paying attention to sound or paying attention to sort of this local type of awareness, but you describe in your book something called awake.

Awareness. Can you talk about the difference there? 

Yes, so we could say there’s different kinds of awareness. So the first one that most people know is attention. So kind of a one-pointed Focus, you know, bring your attention to your breath. And what you do is you use your small moving mind to try to focus on an object, in this case, your breath.

And your mind keeps moving and you keep bringing it back to the object of attention and then you develop a kind of a calm state but what research has showed is that you’re actually repressing your internal. Ability to observe what’s going on inside your just putting on What’s called the task mode Network by making attention one pointed and it calms you but you can’t transition then to live from there.

So that’s the first kind of attention that most people use as a calming and the second is kind of this witness position. Of mindfulness where you feel like you’re observing your thoughts feelings and Sensations as objects that are coming and going and this helps us to kind of observe that a lot of therapists use this, you know, can you be aware of that feeling that you’re upset or angry where you aware of it from, you know in your body and then you can kind of Step Up and use a mindful.

Awareness to be aware of that and then awake awareness is like opening behind the camera or behind the meditator or relaxing back and down into this already awake open mind open heart that feels both spacious and embodied and interconnected and. You it takes just the same amount of time to learn this as it does to learn deliberate mindfulness.

So it takes a little practice and it’s very new to kind of open from what was the Observer becomes the observed that point of view or that location of self. And then you’re feeling like you’re a bigger self or a more loving self or a more spacious almost heart-centered view that feels interconnected rather than looking from a detached Witness.

an act perspective there may be sort of some terms that map onto what you’re talking about that might help our listeners. So the term of unhooking from our thoughts we enact we call that cognitive diffusion, which is ability to sort of step back and look at our thoughts which might be more of a deliberate awareness.

Looking at this, you know from moving out of small mind and then the next concept that you’re talking about where you’re kind of. Being from the place of awareness in after we call Self as context as opposed to self as content 


refer to that in your book of being sort of identifying with our self as a Content.

I am a mother or I am, you know podcaster right now and be able to step out of that into two more of a contextual moving view. Can you speak to that 

Sure. Yeah, and that’s that’s beautiful. That is one of the pointers that I use because deliberate mindfulness what most people know as mindfulness the four foundations of mindfulness are being aware of thoughts feelings and Sensations and mind objects.

And noticing them coming and going so that is really learning how to focus on the content. So not only the big content like oh, this is my name and this is you know, where I live in this is but now the content of the subtler level of feelings emotions thoughts. And shifting to the context is is not just shifting to a witness position, but literally to the space between the movement and then realizing that you’re aware of the space and then you’re actually aware from the space.

So the space is actually. The foundation of intelligence from which thoughts feelings and Sensations start to arise like an ocean of awareness arising as waves and this kind of feeling of being or open-heartedness. That’s a little more interested in the context and in fact almost like surrendering or.

Looking to the context of awake awareness Until you realize it’s already aware by itself and you’re aware from it without having to focus without having to concentrate. It’s just the natural flow of of and there’s kind of a safety and an Embrace like you’re being embraced and you’re embracing. You know everything that seems so big before so emotions are really big.

If you’re looking from your small ego Center or from your attention or even from kind of a mindful witness. You feel like you’re a little detached but here you’re feeling almost like embracing and you’re always bigger than. Whatever trauma even trauma-based emotions and shame and fear and Terror 


can’t get bigger than this embracing sense of self.

describe how. A storm can never harm the sky 


Yeah, there’s this metaphor that I learned from psychologists Kelly Wilson when he talks about how to sit with a client and he’s talked about sitting with a client rather than looking at a client as a math problem to be solved looking at them as a sunset.  But when I was reading your work, I realized that that. There’s an add-on experience to that of seeing someone as a sunset when you wake up to the fact that you’re also part 

That’s right. Yeah, so that’s the big shift is this is is not being merged. It’s like not like your merge. So there’s. You know, there’s a sense. If you’re in your subtle Body Energy that you can be two merged with someone else and you’re taking on their energy. So this isn’t that it’s actually. That would be like two clouds kind of merging in their stormy sky and this is like stepping out into the sky and realizing this infinite capacity that’s awake and that that awareness is within the cloud of who you are and that awareness is within the other person. So you’re connected on this level of essential. Sense of being and if the other person’s really upset and they’re going wrong. It’s not gonna you don’t have to take it on in your body. You feel like they you can have more compassion than what’s called empathetic distress, which happens in some of the studies. If you have empathy from just an energetic level. You can go into empathetic distress or burnout. And from this more effortless mindfulness-based therapy you feel connected on the subtlest level, but it’s almost like gossamer curtains that when someone has a strong emotion you feel it, but it goes right through you and it doesn’t isn’t like a hot potato. 

You can obtain this experience in 3 minutes sort of what people have been, you know meditating on Retreat for months at a time. And what what many of us have noticed is how mindfulness and the West has really become divorced from some of the Buddhist philosophy that it originated from and you can see how. Showing up in terms of it’s like being gamified and apps and you get gold stars for how many days you’ve practice for mindfulness or it’s showing up in training programs for stress with Target Corporation. Is there any danger in sort of moving straight to the the practice are trying to really distill it down in this way and removing some of the the essence of the Buddhist philosophy behind it? 

mean in some ways it is the essence of the Buddhist philosophy. The first story told about Buddha is that he had been effortfully doing all these practices meditation renunciation physical mental long periods of sitting he had been teaching all these things and then he finally realized all that effort. Even though he was doing it, you know, so well doing all the jhana practices and the inside practices was getting him nowhere and so he sat for a moment and what he reflected on was a time when he was a child on a summer day after lunch just sitting on a tree in an open field and just looking out at the sky and he realized oh. Well, that’s what I’m looking for. Could it be that simple that it’s just already here and I don’t have to make so much effort. So in some ways this is going back to the root of what the first initial discovery of Buddhism was is that it’s naturally here. It was available as a child the teacher that. Learn this from was giving it out freely and felt like it’s actually what is most needed for westerners. It’s likely to be the style. That’s most helpful if it’s fully. Taught so it’s not just transcending. It’s actually transcending and embodying and interconnecting. So it has a kind of movement to it a flow and he said that he had done three three year retreats in a classic style of a Long training, but he said that 13 is Uncle had pointed his true nature out to him and it was no different. Then it was after three three a retreats. So again, it’s this it literally is the source of freedom from self that’s already available and it’s we’re kind of motivation and ethics spring from. 

you said what many people may have noticed they’ve already. Experience before I know from my experience of being with someone when they’re dying or holding a newborn baby. There’s these these moments were. Time time seems Timeless and you feel so part of each each move each subtle movement of their face or their body and I think everyone probably has experienced that in some way or another but you’re putting not only words to it. But also some practices to how to get there and you use something called glimpses. 

That’s right. 

Can you speak about those? 

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So this the sense of a glimpse isn’t that it’s a short meditation experience that you’re having is literally a shift from the current operating system, which is a small separate sense of self. That’s kind of a habit of thought going to thought going to emotion going to sensation. That creates a feeling of a little me that most people feel is in the middle of their head behind their eyes and looking out and analyzing and judging and kind of driving this vehicle of a body around and that Glimpse is letting awareness just relax or open. To discover the more essential new operating system of awareness based knowing that embodied and open-hearted and is more essentially who we are so it’s a shift. Of identity. It’s a shift of mind to shift of perception into our awake Consciousness and that Glimpse that you know, boot ahead under the tree was that and that people can learn to intentionally do it that it’s learnable. It’s teachable and that it’s it’s simple once you kind of learn the basic so initially its. You know it’s odd and weird, but because it’s you know, how do you do that? Unhook your awareness from thought and have it go to seeing have a go-to hearing have a go to the space in the room have a go to the awareness that’s already aware. What are you talking about? But once you play with it and get a little feel for it, it’s like riding a bicycle. You don’t know how to ride a bicycle and it seems scary. And once you realize okay, well you have to be moving to get on you can’t just get on. Oh, no, if I’m moving I’m going to fall, you know, so once you get a feel for what balance is. It’s not a mental knowing it’s not an intellectual. Understanding the Glimpse gives you a felt sense of being and then a felt sense of seeing from being. 

a bicycle once you’ve experienced a glimpse, you can’t unknow it. 

That’s right. 

Now you know it and now, you know how to feel and it’s very, you know embodied and it’s hard to describe describe what these, you know sort of we do all this conceptual talking about things but a lot of it is feeling one of the glimpses that you use in the book is with emotions and I really liked it because the first few steps of it will sound really familiar to those of us that have been doing some of this mindfulness work, which is. Or even cognitive diffusion with you start with the feeling. I am sad and then you take a little look at that and then you move to I feel sad and you move to I’m aware of feeling sadness. 


then sadness is welcome. So all of those are probably ones that you know, as a therapist, I’ve worked with clients in but the last one which kind of threw me a little bit is when you say when you say awareness and sadness are not separate. 



yeah. So so this is this is the content and context are not too so you can focus on the content. And be to a meshed first of all, I am sad so when you say I am sad and feel it for even a moment you merge and you identify and your whole being and your identity is sadness. It’s bigger than you. There’s nothing else then I feel sad. Okay, so now there’s that little move of mindfulness. Oh, I feel sad. So there’s I and there’s a feeling of something else. So it’s kind of subject object and then I’m aware of feeling sadness. Now, you’ve stepped back to a little bigger witness position. Oh, I’m aware of feeling sadness. Now. You have a little more context of that separate from content and then sadness is welcome. Starts to mingle the two so you’re not caught in what I call the witness protection program of being in the context looking at the context content. Then you feel oh sadness is welcome. And then you feel that sadness and awareness are not two things that you don’t have to go outside. That the sadness is arising as you’re being within this bigger field or ocean. That is not sad, but can feel the weather in the sky is you know, there’s a cloudy sky but behind the sky as the sun and you know, the weather will pass and it won’t hurt anything. There’s this bigger view of you. So this so that feeling that the essential dimension of knowing isn’t thought it’s a wake space. It’s awareness. So a child a baby is aware and has no thought no has no language has no Concepts and yet they’re Fully Alive. In fact when you look at it as you were saying a little baby you literally feel. The awareness mingled with sadness or happiness or whatever state that feeling is is beingness, which is that pointer at the end awareness and sadness are not to nothing’s bigger than you, but you don’t need to reject or defend against emotion. 

 a little example. Of how that supplies would be so, you know having worked inpatient psych and outpatients. I can you know with every diagnosis available including you know, a lot of super successful people, you know, but in an inpatient situation where somebody. I had anorexia and she was cutting herself as well. And that was her kind of way of being bound by her symptoms of anorexia. And so asking her are you aware of a part of yourself that wants to hurt yourself instead being part of myself? Yeah part of you. Oh and that gives a little distance. Yeah, there’s a part of me. Where is that part and she kind of said well, it’s kind of right here in my throat kind of holding me by my throat. Okay, so you’re aware of that part that want. Yeah, there’s that part and it’s located in certain are ya now you aware of a part that wants to get better that wants to be free that wants love that wants is because I don’t know if I am or not. Let me well. Why don’t you take a look? Okay. Oh, oh, yeah kind of like in the middle of my chest like in my heart or my belly like right there and it has a shape and area. Yeah. Okay. Now who’s aware of those two parts? and she just opened and these wide eyes and this big smile and she said well I am. And I said, well, where are you aware from? And she said from love I mean from everywhere from everywhere and here and I said, yeah and that’s you right. Yeah, and these are parts of you. Yeah. Yeah. And then how do you feel toward those parts from this sense of who you are and she said wow. I feel compassion toward both of them. So that’s kind of a little glimpse of this process that traditionally, you know, this direct practice, you know has had these caveat. So well you need to do all these preliminary practices and it’s only for the elite meditator Olympic athletes of meditation and you shouldn’t you know end. The truth is it’s not only available to everyone it’s available to those who would be considered never available to which are people with complex trauma. And not only is it available to them that they need it the most so this is why I’m kind of bringing this out. To the world and having you know with the ethics and the you know, having studied and checked out the whole system. It just seems like a Time. 

physical pain. 

Yeah, absolutely. 

well chronic pain things that feel like they’re never going to go away that we get so entangled 

Yeah, so I have a little yeah protocol in this book that has helped people with chronic pain. That’s a very different kind of mindfulness toward the pain that. 

Yes, you take the non-dual body scan is what you described it. So those that know about mindfulness and chronic pain. We think about cobot sins body scan. Everyone’s listen to that audio, you know a lot of times but but you do the non-dual body scan, what’s that subtle subtle 

Yes, and subtle difference is when you do a body scan if you were to say okay begin to become aware of your foot and you know, let your awareness let yourself bring your attention to your foot and let yourself scan your foot or both your feet. You’re doing it from your head. So what I say is okay notice. Where are you focusing on your foot from? Now unhook awareness from thought and that location be aware of that location. That was The Observers now observed and now let the awareness feel your head from within now let the awareness drop and be aware of your jaw from within your jaw and aware of your throat from within your throat. And so as you’re dropping your actually aware from within your body of your body,  so that kind of approach of going right to the area of the pain and directly looking inside it and then not having the signal go up to the head but literally go to the field of awareness. Just brings it from like an 8 on a Pain Scale to a to immediately. 

So how does this map onto Neuroscience you studied quite a bit of Neuroscience and even have been one of the participants people study your brain in these studies and it’s there’s this interesting mapping on what you’re describing and effortless mindfulness of this not deliberate mindfulness, but effortless mindfulness being distinct. There’s a mapping on to what’s happening in the brain. 

Yes, so I mentioned a little bit about this this you know, kind of What’s called the default network of the brain, which is this just recently discovered. Reason that we become distracted is that our brain has these two systems one looks outward what’s going on out here and then it the other system comes on the internal one and says what’s going on inside and then it just keeps alternating. So when you try to focus on your breath, the reason that you become distracted is because you. You’re the other system will come on and when we do one pointed meditation, we repress one system and and just focus on one and in non-dual meditation. We balance both we actually are aware of inside and outside simultaneously. So that you start to feel this Unity or Oneness is kind of seamless feeling of being aware of what’s going on inside of you what’s going on outside of you without this alternating distraction or hyper-vigilance. And so it feels really safe and connected and soft and kind of people say it’s like the ground of being there’s this open. Nest like a Tai Chi Master feels that’s what someone said who is it was all you just led me into what I feel after, you know like 20 years of Tai Chi this is how I feel I feel safe I could respond. I’m I’m loving I’m not worried, but I’m aware of everything going on and how I feel about it. 

So one thing that I’ve experienced is when I’m in that that space and often times the way that I get to that space is going on a retreat and coming back from Retreat. Sometimes I wonder about I come back so open-hearted and and then I come back into a world that maybe isn’t in the same space that I’m in and sometimes I wonder if I’m sort of like. A drunk person at a party who thinks they’re really funny, but everyone else didn’t think they’re so funny because I’m so open-hearted and so open and vulnerable and compassionate and you know, I come back to like my partner’s pulling out his hair from dealing with the kids for you know week while I was meditating and doing yoga. So how do we because I could also see that potential for stepping into that space and it being somewhat self-serving. In some way or not or not or not connecting with people even though you feel connected. 

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s that’s the critique of doing kind of closed eyes deliberate mindfulness Retreats and that’s experience. I hear where as you know, the Retreats of effortless mindfulness by. We’re open-eyed most of the time we’re doing partner exercises. We’re bringing content of by the end. We’re kind of doing this open-hearted tonglen practice. We’re we’re kind of feeling open-hearted toward each other then we’re sharing things with each other in a way that were and then by the end, we’re okay talk about what you’re about to go home to what’s the situation bring that in to the space so that there’s a transition. From cushion to off the cushion to mingle to be awake in the world. I mean I live in New York City. So I I think it’s great fun. I mean I’m having a blast and all sorts of stuff happening, but it’s a continuous response and people respond when you’re open-hearted and. And you’re not kind of a little LOL and or a little you know in a kind of retreat space you’re in a engaged open heart that feels like you can be responsive and acknowledge something, but just, you know, not deny it. 


 deny working with a Buddhist psychologist Rhadule Weininger and there was   


 in Santa Barbara and they were responding  with a community Gathering and workshop and. And when I was planning out this Workshop, I had this Grand idea of post-traumatic growth and I’ve done all this research and post-traumatic growth and presented it to her up. Like I want to talk about this and and she paused and said, whoa, hold on here. I don’t want to do a spiritual bypass and it was the first time I’d actually ever heard 

Oh, okay. 

aback a little bit little put me in my place. Can you talk about what is a spiritual bypass? And how do we how 

Yeah, so I’ll do that by also adding my other two categories that I added which is a cognitive overpass and a psychological underpass. So the spiritual bypass is 


something that has was coined and it basically means, you know, maybe a little bit of what you were talking about when you kind of go away and go into a Transcendent kind of Consciousness. That’s a little detached from the world and you start to be less embodied and more. Focused on the Transcendent and about pure awareness and about all as well from a kind of loving kindness and you’re kind of creating a world or a state or attitudes that are a little bit almost denying the relative world. 

think yeah, I think I think we she was referring to there. Also was I was going straight to let’s talk about the growth the possibility of growth from this tragedy as opposed to be able to sit in the tragedy a little bit longer. 

That’s right. Yeah, so that so that your, you know, your mingling you’re both Transcendent and imminent you feel the infinite and the finite the. Possibility of growth but then you’re with the grieving process while that’s happening so that but then there’s the cognitive overpass which is you know, somewhat similar but it’s just basically using our intelligence to kind of figure things out or dance, you know dance above everything or just rationalize everything away. Although it’s going to be fine and we’ll work it out and just try to do the best you can and we’ll figure it out a read some spiritual books and you know understand psychologically and understand. What we need to do and how to do it and just plan and you know, so that kind of keeps us in our head in this very smart neurotic place that we feel like we’re doing the best we can because we don’t know another option and then the psychological underpass is people. Who do just psychological work and are continually just trying to work with their childhood situation, but they don’t have a resource of a spiritual resource or meditative resource or resource of something bigger than their psychological ego. So they’re healing and cleaning and just moving pieces around. On the chessboard or cleaning up the cloud and then the cloud will still get messy and I’ll still remain in the cloud but they don’t know the sky is also who they are and you know, they psychologically, you know, 90% of psychological models don’t include spirituality or meditative consciousness. 

Right this is it a perpetually seeking for you know for something to to be the solution out there and not realizing it’s just wow. It’s just right here. It’s 


Yeah, I love the traps and detours part of your book you talk about some of those intellectualization one that I really liked you said is loving the description but not taking the prescription which I think we can all get we can all get in that mode of reading a lot of books and getting behind it. But then never actually really doing the practice or applying it. 

Yeah, and you know as you were saying before the you know, when you get that Glimpse there is this taste of Freedom this taste of love this taste of a new operating system that you feel. Wow, the three minutes. I’m in it and now I’m here and from here. Everything is so beautiful. And this is where I want to live from but  when you go back to the habitual operating system from the small separate self, there’s defensive parts and protective parts that start saying like oh, well, that was yeah that was fine for then but I don’t know if you can live that way and you know, I think you were a little spaced out. So I don’t know we’ll do that again, but, you know got other things to do and and so from that. Operating system people will often get busy or get distracted because that current operating system has not only an ego Center. It has ego defenses that are basically saying look I got you this far and you ain’t dead yet. So don’t mess around with with, you know, just holding it together and suffering, you know a little less but you know this whole. You know upgrade feels like I’m going to be left behind. So there’s some kind of talking to these parts as part of the system that you start to say. Okay, you’re afraid, you know to go into this awakened Consciousness and this open-heartedness. Could you feel like you’ll be alone or you’ll be in danger or it’ll be you know to you’ll be a couch potato or something, but let me show you. That would just go into the kitchen to Resource with the source and now coming back from this loving presence and now we’re going to include you as important parts of the team that can help but you don’t have to be The Driver anymore. So the ego Center that kind of manager Parts just you know start to relax and then they’re available when needed but. Peace of mind is the norm. So people who have done this practices for a while, you know, just described radical changes and you know, one of them is just this sense of safety and well-being and okayness and kind of Joy. So emotional joy that you’re just like with friends all the time as if you’re safe and you can respond easily. So it’s you know quite remarkable. 

talk about that process of awareness,  in the last we group everything together awareness we make that the same as attention and Consciousness. It’s all sort of one. We think of that is all being one thing so we’ll say things like I’m aware of my breath or I bring attention to my breath, but you make a distinction between between those that they’re not the same. 

Yeah, so there are types of awareness. So even in you know in Buddhism thinking is the Sixth Sense and everything appears to awareness. So awareness awake awareness is the source of mind and then attention is the small focusing type of awareness mindful awareness is kind of the big. Observing awareness from the context and then awake awareness is actually like the quantum field that’s made of nothing. It’s invisible, but it’s Dynamic and from it arise particles and waves made of this awake Consciousness that then form into patterns of people and thought and feeling but essentially the ability to feel. Awareness to be aware of thought then to be aware of the space. Between the thoughts then to be aware of the awareness that’s aware of the thought and the space. And then to realize from that awareness you can be aware of space or thought and that thought and space are all. Kind of dancing in this kind of unity of and it’s actually what emptiness means so interestingly emptiness, which is the main word in Buddhism means empty of a separate sense of self. So there’s no thing that exists by itself a flower is not a flower without sun and water and Earth. So everything is interdependent. Which means everything is interconnected, which means that there’s this when you feel that you feel you don’t feel void and you feel emptiness you feel interconnected with everything you feel the awareness is the subject and it’s arising within everyone and everything. 

we could see if we’re a living from that space more how our actions would probably be different with each other with our planet. 

That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. It really is a radical. It’s a radical thing and you know, I you know, I mean obviously I respect everyone’s tradition and opinion and. You know have practice many and get benefit from many different Traditions, but it just feels like there’s just this one move from relative practices to the possibility of something that hasn’t been on the map before in Psychology and philosophy and. Meditation and and it’s here now. It’s just coming into possibility and those who have kind of discovered it are like oh my God, how could you I mean, I don’t know how many times a how come nobody told me about this before, you know, it’s like what? This is the secret sauce, you know, like so, you know, that’s I’m just trying to distinguish and discriminate in just just get people to just get that little glimpse of this other, you know possibility. 

Yeah, and I saw that you are doing a workshop coming up through tricycle and if folks are interested in learning directly from you or through you what how could they go about 

Yeah, so I’m doing one there and I’m doing one accrue Apollo Yoga Center, and then I’m doing one in Costa Rica. I’m doing one in esalen. 

 so there’s these wonderful Retreats coming up. So yeah. My website is L o c h K e l l y dot org, and there’s some YouTube videos and other things on on there.

That you can get experiences of you can find my book there and then find other ways to to come and meet some other people. 

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share some of your wisdom and experience with us and the way of effortless mindfulness a revolutionary guide for a living and awakened life is available and we’ll link to that as well as some of your trainings and website on our show notes.

Thank you so 

really a pleasure to meet you. 

Yeah, take care.